Mr. WYDEN. Mr. Chairman? Mr. DINGELL. The gentleman from Oregon. Mr. WYDEN. One other point before we move on. I know you want to, Mr. Chairman. To be an over-the-counter sale, Mr. Hurwitz, it is my understanding that you have to have two brokers, and in your situation there weren't two brokers, isn't that correct? Mr. HURWITZ. Not that I am aware of. Mr. WYDEN. The question then, did you have a broker or did you deal directly with the broker? Mr. HURWITZ. We dealt directly with Jefferies. Mr. DINGELL. Notice with your broker dealing with his broker, is that right? Mr. HURWITZ. There was just one broker involved and that was Jefferies, he sold us the stock. Mr. WYDEN. But it is my understanding, Mr. Chairman, and perhaps counsel can correct us otherwise, to meet the definition of an over-the-counter sale, there have to be two brokers? Mr. HURWITZ. I don't think that is right. I think that you can go to any broker and buy an over-the-counter security where he is a market maker or dealer in it, and he can sell you the stock. Mr. DINGELL. My recollection is you have to have two brokers. Where did this stock that Mr. Jefferies sold you come from? Did he have it in inventory or was he selling it to you by the standard mechanism of bid and offered that one finds on the over-the-counter exchange? Mr. HURWITZ. Well, by reading this New York Stock Exchange document, he said that he had it in a risk arbitrage account. Mr. DINGELL. He had it in a risk arbitrage account? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir, that is what it says here. Mr. DINGELL. So, it was actually an inventory of stock that he had inside his firm? Mr. HURWITZ. That is what this document says, yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. How is that an over-the-counter sale then? He is selling you stock which he owns, and on the day of the sale, he is selling it to you for about $4 less than the going price. Mr. HURWITZ. He is not a member of the New York Stock Exchange‹ Mr. DINGELL. No, but he is selling you stock for $4 less than the going price that he has in a risk arbitrage account; is that right? Mr. HURWITZ. No, sir. Mr. DINGELL. It is not right? Mr. HURWITZ. No, sir. What is right is he agreed to sell the stock in this option agreement at $29.10 a share. Mr. DINGELL. You told me you had an option account here. I think what you told me was that you bought it over-the-counter? Mr. HURWITZ. We had told Jefferies that we would like to purchase these shares he offered us under this option agreement. He sent in the papers, we agreed upon the price. Mr. DINGELL. But you told me that your option agreement collapsed because it would have required you to disclose something that your lawyer said that you didn't want to disclose. Mr. HURWITZ. That is correct. Mr. DINGELL. So you did not buy under any agreement. You bought in some way. You bought on apparently an oral contract, is that right? Mr. HURWITZ. We agreed upon the price. I told Jefferies the contract‹ Mr. DINGELL. You agreed. Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. Now, when did Mr. Jefferies start acquiring this stock that he had in this risk arbitrage account; do you know? Mr. HURWITZ. It says in this document on August 1. Mr. DINGELL. On August 1? Mr. HURWITZ. Well, I don't know. This is the New York Stock Exchange memo that Mr. Smith was referring to. Mr. DINGELL. So, he started buying in early August, is that right? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. When did you start talking to him? Mr. HURWITZ. In early August. Mr. DINGELL. Was he buying before he talked to you or after he talked to you? Mr. HURWITZ. I don't know. Mr. DINGELL. When did you talk to him first? Mr. HURWITZ. In early August. Mr. DINGELL. What‹early is any time before the 15th‹when? Mr. HURWITZ, I don't know, the exact date. It could have been on the 1st. Mr. DINGELL. On the last? Mr. HURWITZ. It could have been. Mr. DINGELL. Mr. Hurwitz, we have discussed this morning a great deal‹what is MCO? That is a corporation, is it not? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. It is a corporation that you control? Mr. HURWITZ. Well, I am the Chief Executive Officer. Mr. DINGELL. OK. What is the principal business of MCO? Mr. HURWITZ. It was oil and gas activities, real estate‹that is its principal activity. Mr. DINGELL. Does it deal in securities? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir, it has a securities account and it owns, as I mentioned, 37 percent of MAXXAM Corp. Mr. DINGELL. Is MCO different than MCOP? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. What is MCOP? Mr. HURWITZ. It is a subsidiary of it, a wholly owned subsidiary. It is MCO Properties. Mr. DINGELL. Does it have the same officers that MCO does? Mr. HURWITZ. I don't know. Mr. DINGELL. Are there any differences in officers at MCO? Who is the Chief Executive Officer at MCOP? Mr. HURWITZ. I don't know. Mr. DINGELL. Are there any differences in officers? Who is the Chief Executive Officer? Mr. HURWITZ. Of MCOP? Mr. DINGELL. At MCOP. Mr. HURWITZ. I think it is Dr. Bill Leone. Mr. DINGELL. What are the relationships between MAXXAM and MCO? Mr. HURWITZ. MCO owns about 37 percent of MAXXAM. Mr. DINGELL. MCO owns 37 percent of MAXXAM? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. And it owns 100 percent of MCOP? Mr. HURWITZ. MCOP is just a real estate subsidiary. Mr. DINGELL. Why was MCOP then buying 494,000 shares at $29.10 of Pacific Lumber on September 27, 1985? Mr. HURWITZ. You mean why did they buy‹ Mr. DINGELL. Why didn't MAXXAM buy it, why didn't you buy it, why didn't MCO buy it? You tell me MCOP is a real estate acquisition subsidiary. Mr. HURWITZ. They had money. It is a wholly owned subsidiary of MCO holding, so the ownership is identical. Mr. DINGELL. The statement that you filed on this matter says MPI owns 500,000 shares, MCOP owns 494,000 shares which were purchased in the open market. Now, how did MAXXAM get the 500,000 shares that it had? Was that purchased from Jefferies or was that purchased from some other source? Mr. HURWITZ. It was purchased over a period of time that we talked about, yes, sir, just in the open market. Mr. DINGELL. Was any of that purchased from Jefferies? Mr. HURWITZ. I think I stated earlier that I didn't know, I don't think so. But we were asked to get those documents and we certainly will. Mr. DINGELL. Your statement filed indicates that 44,700 shares were purchased‹ Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir, that is the last purchase at $29.25. I thought you meant before that. Mr. DINGELL. Were there other purchases also from Jefferies earlier than that? Mr. HURWITZ. Not that I am aware of, but we will certainly provide that documentation to you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. DINGELL. Who makes the day-to-day decisions in MAXXAM? You are the Chief Executive Officer? Mr. HURWITZ. I am the CEO, yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. That is you? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. Who makes the day-to-day decisions in MCO? Mr. HURWITZ. I am the Chief Executive Officer. Mr. DINGELL. So, you make the decisions there? Mr. HURWITZ. There are Chief Operating Officers in both companies, and I would say that they are more likely to make the day-to-day decisions. Mr. DINGELL I think I would be surprised and I think you would be surprised, and I think that the Chief Operating Officer would be surprised thoroughly if he were to make a day-to-day operating decision that you didn't agree with, wouldn't that be so? Mr. HURWITZ. Well, it happens all the time. Mr. DINGELL. Who makes the day-to-day decisions at MCOP? Mr. HURWITZ. The same people, Chief Operating Officer, Billy Owen, who is President of MCO holding. Mr. DINGELL. Why did MCOP buy shares in Pacific Lumber? Mr. HURWITZ. You mean rather than MCO holding? Mr. DINGELL. Yes, rather than MCO or MAXXAM? Mr. HURWITZ. MAXXAM, as we discussed, couldn't buy. MCO, he bought it, I think we had money there. As I mentioned, it is a wholly owned subsidiary of MCO holding. The ownership is the same. Mr. DINGELL. You negotiated the purchase, though, of that 494,000 shares that were purchased by MCOP, did you not? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. Who made the investigation decision to buy Pacific Lumber stock from Jefferies, was it your decision or was that the Chief Operating Officer or the Chief Executive Officer of MCOP? Mr. HURWITZ. I think it was everyone's decision. Everyone was in on it. Mr. DINGELL. Basically, though, it was your decision, was it not? You conducted the negotiations with Jefferies? Mr. HURWITZ. Certainly I had a large part of it. They were well aware of it, it was approved by the executive committee. Mr. DINGELL. And everybody knew this was a part of a takeover effort with regard to Pacific Lumber, is that correct? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. When was this decision made with regard to MCOP? Mr. HURWITZ. Purchasing the shares? Mr. DINGELL. At MCOP, when was the decision made? Mr. HURWITZ. It was made September 26 or September 27. Mr. DINGELL. September 26 or 27. OK. Mr. HURWITZ. It was executed on the 27th, I believe. Mr. DINGELL. At MCOP, the decision was made the 26th or 27th. When was it made at MCO? Mr. HURWITZ. I assume the same time. Mr. DINGELL. Beg your pardon? Mr. HURWITZ. The same time. It is the same‹as I mentioned, MCOP is a wholly owned subsidiary. Mr. DINGELL. So it was the same time. Who approved this at MCOP? MCOP had, first of all, its own chief executive officer, its own chief operating officer, and apparently its own board of directors. Am I right? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. Who made the decision there? Mr. HURWITZ. The same people at MCO holdings. Mr. DINGELL. Beg your pardon? Mr. HURWITZ. The same operating people at MCO holdings are the same people at MCOP. Mr. DINGELL. So MCO then made the decision for MCOP? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir, but they are the same people. Mr. DINGELL. You told me they were different. Mr. HURWITZ. I may not be the Chief Executive Officer of MCOP, but if I am not, Bill Leone is. Mr. DINGELL. So MCOP, the decisions that are made, are not made by the chief executive officer and the chief operating officer, they are made by the chief executive officer and the chief operating officer at MCO? Mr. HURWITZ. MCOP has its own officers, but I believe they are identical with the people with the possible exception of myself. Mr. DINGELL. You told me they were not. They have a different chief operating officer and a different chief executive officer' Mr. HURWITZ. I didn't mean to say that. I think the chief operating officer is the same and he may be the chief executive officer and I may be the Chief Executive Officer of MCOP. Mr. DINGELL. Then you made the decisions for them; is that right? Mr. HURWITZ. That is certainly possible, yes. Mr. DINGELL. What was the business purpose of MCO in buying Pacific Lumber? Mr. HURWITZ. They thought it was an attractive investment, knew that MAXXAM, which is a sister company to it, was going to make a tender offer and participated in it, also signed an agreement that it would participate in all expenses going forward and backward in case it was aborted in some way. Mr. DINGELL. When did they sign that agreement? Mr. HURWITZ. It was some time that weekend. Mr. DINGELL. It was after the purchase of the stock? Mr. HURWITZ. I am not sure. It could have been the same date. Mr. DINGELL. Was it before? Mr. HURWITZ. I don't know the exact date. Mr. DINGELL. In point of fact, wasn't it signed on October 2? Mr. HURWITZ. It could have been; Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. You don't remember? Mr. HURWITZ. I don't remember. Mr. DINGELL. Wasn't it written in the document that the agreement was effective October 2? Mr. HURWITZ. I don't recall, sir. that is very possible. Mr. DINGELL. Would you provide that for the record, please? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. [See appendix A, p. 141.] Mr. DINGELL. Who at MCO can make decisions involving amounts in excess of $15 million? Mr. HURWITZ. Bill Leone, L-e-o-n-e. Mr. DINGELL. Can you make decisions to that effect‹I said MCO, not MCOP. Mr. HURWITZ. Could I? I probably could. Would I? I wouldn't without the approval. I don't know that I can. There is some kind of executive committee that has to approve something over a certain amount and I seem to remember that may be $5 million, but I am not exactly sure. Mr. DINGELL. Can Bill Leone make this kind of decision without the approval of the board of directors of the executive committee? Mr. HURWITZ. No, sir. Mr. DINGELL. Can you? Mr. HURWITZ. No, sir. Mr. DINGELL. Why was the decision made that MCO and not MAXXAM would acquire 500,000 shares of Jefferies & Co.? Mr. HURWITZ. Because if MAXXAM purchased it, it would be in violation of Hart-Scott-Rodino. Mr. DINGELL. Would it have been a violation of Hart-Scott-Rodino or simply have required that MAXXAM then comply with the other provisions of Hart-Scott-Rodino? Mr. HURWITZ. It is my understanding it would have been a violation if they had purchased it. Mr. DINGELL. What you are telling me was that in point of fact that it would have been in violation of Hart-Scott-Rodino, but there were certain things you would have had to do to comply with the statute as opposed to being in violation simply by reason of the acquisition, isn¹t that a fact?? Mr. HURWITZ. Well, sir, we eventually filed Hart-Scott-Rodino and were approved. Mr. DINGELL. Why did you eventually make a filing as required by Hart-Scott-Rodino? Mr. HURWITZ. Because when we made the tender offer we announced that we wanted to buy the entire company and in order to do that we had to have the Hart-Scott-Rodino approval. Mr. DINGELL. Whose money paid for the purchase of MCO? Was it‹rather paid for the purchase of the 494,000 shares of stock of Pacific Lumber? Was it money belonging to MCO or was it money belonging to MAXXAM? Mr. HURWITZ. I don't recall, sir, where the money came from. It is in the documentation. Mr. DINGELL. Do the two companies function out of a common treasury? Mr. HURWITZ. No, sir. Mr. DINGELL. They do not? Do you have joint stock accounts at MAXXAM and MCO? Mr. HURWITZ. No, sir. Mr. DINGELL. You do not. Do you have joint stock accounts at MCO and MCOP? Mr. HURWITZ. I don¹t know. I don't think so. Mr. DINGELL. Whose check was used to pay for the purchase by MCOP‹was it a corporate check belonging to MAXXAM, MCO or MCOP? Mr. HURWITZ. I would assume that it was MCOP's check. Mr. DINGELL. Will you submit that for the record, please? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir, I certainly will. Mr. DINGELL. Was there a MCO board of directors meeting to approve the takeover of Pacific Lumber? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir, I think so. Mr. DINGELL. There was? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. Were minutes kept? Mr. HURWITZ. I think so. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. Would you submit these to us, please? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. When was that meeting held? Mr. HURWITZ. I don't recall the date. Mr. DINGELL. Would you submit that to us for the record, please? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. EIZENSTAT. Mr. Chairman, I don't want to interrupt your train of discussion, but if the witness could have a brief break, he would appreciate it. Mr. DINGELL. I think that is appropriate. The committee will stand in recess for 15 minutes. [Brief recess.] Mr. DINGELL. The subcommittee will come to order. Mr. Campbell and Mr. Hurwitz are under oath. Was there a meeting at MCO, at MCOP or at MAXXAM involving boards of directors under the charter to approve doing the take-over of Pacific Lumber? Mr. HURWITZ. Is that a question, sir? Mr. DINGELL. That is a question. Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. There was‹at each of the three corporations? Mr. HURWITZ. I think so. Mr. DINGELL. Would you tell us when this meeting occurred in each case? Mr. HURWITZ. I don't know, sir. I don't recall. Mr. DINGELL. Would you submit to us two things: one, the date of the meeting; and two, the minutes of the meeting? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. [See appendix A, p. 141.] Mr. DINGELL. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Oregon. Mr. WYDEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Hurwitz, why did you invest in TSG? Mr. HURWITZ. TSG was an investment company traded on the London Stock Exchange. It was trading at under net asset value and I thought‹I liked the people and it gave me some exposure overseas in England and France. Mr. WYDEN. How did you find out that TSG was looking for investors? Mr. HURWITZ. Looking for investors? I guess I didn't know they were looking for investors. Mr. WYDEN. Who referred TSG to you? Mr. HURWITZ. I don't think anyone referred it. Stanley Cohen is the Chief Executive Officer of TSG and he is an acquaintance of mine and that is how I got interested in it with him. Mr. WYDEN. How well do you know Stanley Ira Cohen? Mr. HURWITZ. I know him reasonably well. Mr. WYDEN. I am sorry, I didn't‹ Mr. HURWITZ. I know him reasonably well. Mr. WYDEN. Mr. Hurwitz, a copy of the New York Stock Exchange staff report was provided to your counsel on Friday. Mr. Chairman, I would ask that a copy of that report be included in the record at this point. Mr. DINGELL. Without objection, so ordered. [The New York Stock Exchange report follows] Mr. WYDEN. Mr. Hurwitz, are you familiar now with that report? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir, Mr. WYDEN. Is there anything in that report that you would like to expand upon or comment upon in any way? Mr. EIZENSTAT. With all respect, it is a very long report. I think if there are particular areas, he would be prepared to answer it, but I don't want the fact that there may be one area that is omitted from his statement to be an implication‹ Mr. WYDEN. That will be fine. The report of the New York Stock Exchange staff states that MAXXAM declined to cooperate with the Exchange in its investigation. Do you know why this is so, Mr. Hurwitz? Mr. HURWITZ. No, sir. Mr. DINGELL. Was that a matter of policy at MAXXAM? Mr. HURWITZ. I am not even aware of it. Mr. DINGELL. Was it ever discussed with the board of directors, the executive committee, or the chief executive or the chief operating officer? Mr. HURWITZ. No, sir. I wasn't aware of it. Mr. DINGELL. Wouldn't it seem peculiar to you that a matter of this kind would not be reported, that the company was under investigation by the New York Stock Exchange? Mr. HURWITZ. I didn't know that it was under investigation. Mr. DINGELL. Thank you. Mr. WYDEN. Mr. Hurwitz, do you know Mr. Boesky? Mr. HURWITZ. I met him once. Mr. WYDEN. Have you ever had any discussions with Mr. Boesky? Mr. HURWITZ. No. Mr. WYDEN. Do you know why he could have bought Pacific Lumber stock before the announcement of the tender offer? Mr. HURWITZ. No. Mr. WYDEN. Do you know Dennis Levine? Mr. HURWITZ. I met him once. Mr. WYDEN. Do you have any information that would indicate Dennis Levine or Ivan Boesky received inside information concerning Pacific Lumber? Mr. HURWITZ. Dennis Levine sat in a meeting when he was an employee of Drexel Burnham when there was a discussion of Pacific Lumber, so I think he in fact knew that it was at least contemplated. Mr. WYDEN. When was the statement made and to whom? Mr. HURWITZ. The statement to Dennis Levine? Mr. WYDEN. Yes. Mr. HURWITZ. I would have to get you the date, but it was a large meeting made up of a very large number of people from Drexel Burnham and a lot of lawyers. He walked in and stayed a few minutes and left. Mr. WYDEN. Can you tell us any more details about that or the approximate time in which it took place? Mr. HURWITZ. I will supply it‹I think it was in August, but I would like to supply that to you. [See appendix A, p. 141.] Mr. WYDEN. Mr. Hurwitz, how did you come to invest in Informatics? Mr. HURWITZ. You mean why or how did we purchase the shares? Mr. WYDEN. Why? Mr. HURWITZ. It is a software company and we thought it was an attractive undervalued company. Mr. WYDEN. Who suggested that you should make an investment in Informatics? Mr. HURWITZ. Rob Rosen in our office worked on it. Mr. WYDEN. And who ultimately acquired Informatics? Mr. HURWITZ. We have a company called Sterling Software. Mr. WYDEN. And you have the controlling interest in Sterling? Mr. HURWITZ. No, sir; I have no interest. Mr. WYDEN. Who has the controlling interest in Sterling? Mr. HURWITZ. I have no idea. Mr. WYDEN. Do you have any relationships with Sterling, its officers or its investors? Mr. HURWITZ. No. Mr. WYDEN. Would you describe your relationship with Michael Milken of the firm of Drexel Burnham? Mr. HURWITZ. He is a person that I have been acquainted with for maybe 15 years. Mr. WYDEN. Could you describe your professional relationship? Mr. HURWITZ. I think that is what it is, it is a professional relationship. Mr. WYDEN. Do you have investments and junk bonds underwritten by Drexel Burnham? Mr. HURWITZ. Some of the companies that I am involved with do own some high-yield bonds; yes, sir. Mr. WYDEN. Have you invested at the recommendation or behest of Michael Milken? Mr. HURWITZ. I didn't know that he has advised me or shown me any high-yield bonds. Our account is covered by just regular brokers at Drexel Burnham. Mr. WYDEN. Do you know Mr. Fred Carr? Mr. HURWITZ. I do. Mr. WYDEN. And he is the chief executive officer of First Executive Life? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes. Mr. WYDEN. What relationship do you have with Mr. Carr? Mr. HURWITZ. You mean personal relationship? Mr. WYDEN. No, business relationships. Mr. HURWITZ. Fred Carr, we bought annuities from his insurance company in Pacific Lumber. I don't know if that is what you mean by relationship. Mr. WYDEN. Mr. Carr bought Pacific Lumber junk bonds? Mr. HURWITZ. I didn't know that until recently. Mr. WYDEN. That he did? Mr. HURWITZ. That he did. I did not know that. Mr. WYDEN. Do you have any understandings or agreements with Michael Milken or anyone else with Drexel Burnham to purchase junk bonds underwritten by that firm? Mr. HURWITZ. No. Mr. DINGELL. Will the gentleman yield? What kind of annuity did you buy from Mr. Carr‹for who? Mr. HURWITZ. In Pacific Lumber Co., in the offering document, it stated in there that the overfunded pension fund, that we would apply to terminate the pension fund under the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. and we put out the bid with numerous insurance companies and Executive Life was the low bidder. Mr. DINGELL. So what you are telling us is that you terminated the pension plan at Pacific Lumber? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. That is the employee pension, executive pension plan, all pension plans, or what? Mr. HURWITZ. I don't know‹we had an overfunded pension fund which is in our offering document that states in there that there was surplus money and that we would replace that with an annuity contract and the employees would not be at any detriment and that in fact was done. Mr. DINGELL. How did this annuity contract come about? Mr. HURWITZ. We retained a company called Wyatt & Co.‹ Mr. DINGELL. You retained a company called Wyatt & Co.? Mr. HURWITZ. W-y-a-t-t. And what they did is they analyzed and send in all the information to insurance companies and I think there was some 8 or 10 that they sent this information to, and they put it out for bid and they give them all the information. Mr. DINGELL. When did you commence your discussions with Wyatt to analyze this pension fund? Was this before or after the takeover? Mr. HURWITZ. It was well after. It was some time in maybe March 1986. Mr. DINGELL. March 1986? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. Did you ever discuss this matter with Mr. Fred Carr? Mr. HURWITZ. No, sir. Mr. DINGELL. Never? Mr. HURWITZ. Never. Mr. DINGELL. Neither before nor after the takeover? Mr. HURWITZ. No. Mr. DINGELL. The Chair thanks the gentleman. Mr. WYDEN. Mr. Chairman, I don't have any further questions at this point. I did want to state at this point in the record, before we move on, that I still have significant questions with respect to what was stated in the offering circular of October 2 , 1985 as to whether or not this really was in line with an over-the-counter kind of arrangement, and I would just hope as we continue our inquiry, we would continue to examine whether Mr. Hurwitz's purchase from Mr. Jefferies really was an over-the-counter sale as disclosed in the circular. We have had a considerable amount of discussion today as to whether or not it met the requirements of an over-the-counter sale and I still have significant questions as to whether it does and I would hope that as we continue our inquiry, we continue to leave open this point because I think it is an important one. I thank the chairman. Mr. DINGELL. Thank you. The Chair will advise that those will be matters of active concern to the committee. The Chair is going to recognize Mr. Smith, counsel for the minority. Mr. SMITH. Mr. Hurwitz, to follow up for a second on Mr. Wyden's statement, are you aware that your counsel met with subcommittee staff last Friday? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. SMITH. Are you aware that this question of the statement that these were open market purchases came up in that meeting? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. SMITH. Are you further aware that when your counsel was asked how they could reconcile their description of the purchase from Jefferies as a negotiated sale with the statement that the purchases were made in the open market, they could not do so, and that the statement was made to staff that that was irrelevant to the transaction? Mr. HURWITZ. I am not aware of that, no. Mr. SMITH. I would like to explore a little more with you the MCO purchase from Jefferies. MCO made that purchase on Friday, September 27; is that correct? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. SMITH. And the decision was made to make that purchase basically on Thursday, the 26th or Friday the 27th? Mr. HURWITZ. Yes, sir.